[00:00] Ed Bernardon: If you’re a Formula One racing fan, you know all about the Netflix “Drive to Survive” series, the show where we watch F! managers, drivers, and team owners as the F1 season plays out in front of us. It’s full of excitement and suspense and does a great job of capturing the energy of a grueling F1 season. Here to tell me all about that energy is one of the stars of the hit show.
[00:34] Ed Bernardon: Welcome to part two of my interview with Oracle Red Bull Racing Team principal, Christian Horner. If you haven’t already, I suggest going back and listening to part one where Christian and I discussed his work culture, the biggest changes he’s seen during his time at F1, and the new F1 regulations. In this part two interview, Christian and I discussed major vehicle design changes, new regulations if prompted, his thoughts on “Drive to Survive, and the sustainability efforts within F1. Lastly, we finished off the interview with our Rapid Fire series, where I asked Christian more personal questions, such as what’s the first car he ever owned, and as always, what his living room on wheels looks like. And a few more. I’m Ed Bernardon, and this is part two, with Christian Horner.
[01:24] Ed Bernardon: There’s a lot of people out there that are saying, when you get a team that’s very dominant, there’s this perception that that’s bad for the sport. Because when you have that last race on the last lap, it’s going to determine the champion versus when one team is dominant through the whole season. I’m sure you’ve been asked this question before. Do you think that’s really true?
[01:46] Christian Horner: I think serial winning in any sport probably doesn’t ignite the fan passion as much as if I compare 2023 to 2021, that last lap in Abu Dhabi was the most viewed piece of sporting history. Certainly…
[02:02] Ed Bernardon: The most exciting lap in all Formula One.
[02:05] Christian Horner: …in the world that year, and probably for the decade before. So of course, everybody loves competition. But inevitably, sometimes when you have a big reset in regulations, there is divergence, but with stability, there is always convergence. And I think we’re now into that arena.
[02:25] Ed Bernardon: The American football team, where I’m from in Boston, is the New England Patriots, and they won for 20 years, multiple Super Bowls and all that. And now everybody hates them. Well, not anymore, because now they’re losing. But that’s what happens over time, everyone starts to not like the winner.
[02:39] Christian Horner: The following of Formula One is huge. But of course, you’re going to get people that are fans of Max, and you’ll have people that are fans of Lewis, or Fernando, or others. So, that’s sport, that’s what is part of it. People attach to who they like, who they can relate to, and who they admire.
[03:02] Ed Bernardon: Is there something you think that you could do to the rules, maybe, that would still allow you to go all out? I guess you’re going to go all out to increase that gap no matter what. But could there be something done to the rules, maybe, to make it harder to increase the gap?
[03:15] Christian Horner: The biggest thing is if you want to have absolute fine margins between the cars, leave the rules alone. Just leave them for a long period of time, the cars will converge, and it will be very, very tight, and it’ll be really marginal gains, and then the driver will play a bigger role. That’s the reality.
[03:34] Ed Bernardon: So, as we move away from ’22, it’s going to get tighter. So, do you think this coming year will be a little tighter?
[03:40] Christian Horner: I think the next two years, it’s only going to get harder. And then we have a big reset in ’26.
[03:45] Ed Bernardon: Do it all over again. What about making the sport more exciting? For instance — just throwing some ideas out there — mandate more pitstop so the tires are fresher and they can drive full out the whole time, more refueling, or maybe something crazy like they did in Formula E, where they have fan booster.
[04:02] Christian Horner: They don’t go gimmicky. I mean, false fuel stops and tire changes, what you’ll see is, we’ve been there and through all this before, you’ve only got to look back in history to see what the effect that these rules had. It’s that the races become very mathematical, strategized events that don’t encourage more racing. So, the refueling will be three elements of a sprint race that are three stints, for example, that are flat out. But I guarantee you that there’s less overtaking, because you haven’t got the variance of taking a very heavy car, fuel load coming off down to a very light car at the end of the race. Mandatory tire stops, when do you have to do them? And the strategists will always come up with the same answers. So, everybody ends up stopping on the same lap.
[04:50] Ed Bernardon: You said something interesting there: If you start making it gimmicky, it’s not racing; it’s less racing.
[04:57] Christian Horner: You have got to stay true to the DNA of what is Formula One. It’s a person and machine at the absolute limit of technology, of speed, of grip, of adhesion. And these cars do amazing things, and these drivers are incredible pilots.
[05:13] Ed Bernardon: But if you think about what “Drive to Survive” has done. I remember looking at one episode, and I wanted to see how much time out of these 45 minutes I actually see a car on the track. And I forget which episode it was, but it wasn’t very many minutes. It was certainly less; it was probably in that 10 to 15 range. So, in effect, “Drive to Survive” has made Formula One more popular. But it’s made it more entertaining.
[05:36] Christian Horner: Absolutely, that’s what it’s done.
[05:38] Ed Bernardon: So, couldn’t you do the same thing? Gimmick is probably going too far, but anything that makes it more unpredictable?
[05:45] Christian Horner: “Drive to Survive” isn’t making it more unpredictable. What “Drive to Survive” does, and it does very well, is it gets beneath the cover to expose some of the characters, some of the journeys, some of the challenges that each of the teams up and down the pit lane face and have, and it shows you some of the challenges. Though, watching a standard race you wouldn’t see. It is a TV drama; it’s the Kardashians on wheels. It’s had an immense impact on sports, it’s brought a brand new and huge fan following to the sport, a much younger group of fans, a lot more female fans as well, which is fantastic. And then, of course, they’re then coming and watching races that had live events or on the TV.
[06:28] Ed Bernardon: We were talking about rule changes; there’s going to be a real big rule change in ’26. So, still roughly 1000 horsepower, but the split between the internal combustion and the energy recovery side goes from 85/15 to 50/50. So, what can you tell us about the new powertrain challenges in developing it because that’s a really big change?
[06:51] Christian Horner: That’s a massive change. And I think that we’ve decided to make our own power unit in conjunction with Ford for 2026. So, with 30 months in, we didn’t have a single person or a facility, and now we have over 500 and a state-of-the-art facility, and are already running development engines. So, it’s a massive project, it’s a massive target. Of course, the regulations have evolved and changed for 2026 — sustainability playing a key role in that, and fuel also playing a key role as we go fully sustainable fuel. It is incredible to see the progress and development that is going on, as these cars become ever more efficient and sustainable.
[07:35] Ed Bernardon: Engineering a power unit and manufacturing it is so much different than doing your car chassis. What was the biggest unexpected challenge that’s popped up as you’ve ventured into this?
[07:50] Christian Horner: Time is the biggest critical factor because we have two years to develop a state-of-the-art engine that is powerful, reliable, on its weight target, and can compete against Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault, Audi, Honda, companies that have decades of knowledge and experience. We’re taking a startup and going to be taking all the big boys on. So, it’s a daunting challenge, but we’re just going to apply all the same methodology, all the same culture, spirit, fun with the engine that we have with a chassis. It’s an incredible journey, and it’s incredible to see the progress that’s been made so far. But it’s a race against time; it’s a race against the clock because 2026 in the engine world is not so far away.
[08:41] Ed Bernardon: There’s also talk about, on the chassis side, doing something like having DRS into the corners, or movable aero surfaces. If you go way back, everyone was scared to have movable aero surfaces, when aero wings first came out. Do you think that’s going to happen?
[08:54] Christian Horner: As technology evolves, things like Active Aero, and so on, Active Suspension even, we’ve seen in other cars that we’ve been involved in, technology just keeps moving forward. So, it allows other solutions, but we’re still in the conceptual phase of these regulations. It’s advanced, but no regulations have yet been released on the chassis side for 2026.
[09:16] Ed Bernardon: Do you think it’s a good idea to have movable aero surfaces?
[09:20] Christian Horner: It’s hard for me to quantify. I think you have to look at what you want the output to be. We want cars to be exciting. We want it to race closely. We want it to be competitive. We want to see wheel-to-wheel racing. There has to be a wow factor to it.
[09:33] Ed Bernardon: But you’ve just sort of hit on it. What do you really want? So, in the end, racing is a technology business, it’s about going fast, but it’s also a marketing business. If you add a movable aero surface, and the driver has to control that, and it adds a little unpredictability into the race that requires a new or a different kind of talent, and it makes it more competitive. I would imagine anything that does that would — and it makes the competition tighter — you’re going to expand that audience, right?
[09:59] Christian Horner: Absolutely. I think that it’s interesting. Of course, Formula One has a responsibility from a sustainable perspective as well. So, that drives a lot of the regulations moving forward. I think Formula One can play a key role in that technology because we have some of the brightest and best engineering minds in the world working in this formula. And of course, it’s a competition that moves forward so quickly.
[10:22] Ed Bernardon: So, carbon neutral by 2030. Do you think electric drive is going to play a part in that?
[10:30] Christian Horner: It could play a part. But I think there are other technologies that are equally as exciting. So, I think you’ve got to still be open-minded and not put all your eggs in one basket.
[10:39] Ed Bernardon: So, Alejandro Agag says, recently, that it’s probably going to be a merging of Formula One and Formula E.
[10:50] Christian Horner: Well, I’m sure as the CEO of Formula E, or whatever his role is, he would love that. But Formula One is Formula One; it’s the pinnacle of motorsport. We still have combustion engines for the foreseeable future. The electrical part is playing a much bigger role; it’s essentially a 50/50 split now between electrical and combustion. Unless Formula E ends up with a combustion engine, I can’t see how much closer they’re going to get.
[11:14] Ed Bernardon: Do you think there’s a possibility that there’s enough similarity there? Formula E is a spec series, Formula One is not. Formula One with an electric drive in it, that’s not a spec series. I mean, you start to bring the pieces together. Maybe it could be hydrogen combustion, right?
[11:34] Christian Horner: Hydrogen is an interesting technology and something that we’re quite interested in on the advanced technology side of the business that we’re doing quite a lot of work and research into because I think, as an alternative, that can also be a very exciting route.
[11:47 Ed Bernardon: But then there’s also hydrogen combustion, but it could also be hydrogen through a fuel cell or something like that, or it could be pure batteries. If you took a step back and looked at all of those, which one do you think will float to the top if you had to guess? Which one will float to the top, not only from a sustainability standpoint but a sustainability and maybe even excitement or competition standpoint?
[12:11] Christian Horner: I think sustainable fuels have a key role to play in the future. And as I say, I think the combustion engine has got quite a bit of life left in it yet and I also think hydrogen as well could play a key role. I think electrical solutions have their pluses and minuses. So I think you’ve got to pursue all three, and then the strongest will prevail.
[12:30] Ed Bernardon: There’s a lot more to…
[12:32] Christian Horner: Sustainability than just making the motor.
[12:35] Ed Bernardon: I think a lot of people don’t realize that when they think about carbon neutral by 2030. What are some of the other things that you’ve done, or really the sport in general has done, to overall make the carbon footprint less?
[12:48] Christian Horner: It’s all the other aspects as well because the cars are actually very efficient. A Formula One car has fewer emissions than an English cow during the course of the year. It’s all the support–
[13:00] Ed Bernardon: American cow as well?
[13:02] Christian Horner: American cows are more. English cows are reasonably carbon-efficient. I think it’s all the support failures. It’s aviation, it’s sea freight; it’s all of those elements. And of course, we’re doing an awful lot of recycling and sustainable energy. We’re investing as a group very much heavily in sustainable solutions to everything that we do. But I think it’s a global issue, not just a Formula One issue of continuing to drive that sustainable message.
[13:32] Ed Bernardon: And that’s a big part of it; it’s a global issue. So, if you can do it in racing, which is always pushing to do it fast and do it first, then it can apply elsewhere. Moving all your equipment from one race to another, that’s where all the emissions are coming from, and you’re doing a lot. What do you think the next thing is that you can do to make all these logistics and everything you do try and make the non-track part of sustainability?
[13:57] Christian Horner: Well, I think that we’re trying to take fewer stuff and to be less dependent on air freight and sea freight. But I think aviation fuel is a key development area moving forward, when you consider the amount of people that are in the air at any single point in time, it’s immense. These problems aren’t just related to Formula One, it’s every sport in the world or certainly every major sport in the world. So, it’s a collective effort. It’s not one that Formula One will solve; it’s one that we can play a role in and be responsible. But it’s going to take a very broad engagement globally to really address the issue.
[13:37] Ed Bernardon: If you ever put a power unit inside of a Formula One car that wasn’t “Wow.” If you did go to non-hydrogen combustion, even hydrogen with a fuel cell and batteries, what’s going to happen to all those fans that just love the sound?
[14:51] Christian Horner: I think they’re going to be very disappointed. It would be like going to a rock concert and turning the volume down so you can hardly hear — you can see the players but you can’t hear the music.
[15:00] Ed Bernardon: That’s why you’re a fan of the fuels.
[15:02] Christian Horner: I think the noise is part of the emotion of the sport and noise equates to speed; it equates to energy as well. I think that is a key ingredient of what we do.
[15:17] Ed Bernardon: Gotta talk about “Drive to Survive” for a second. Is there anything about Formula One, or maybe one thing about Formula One that you think “Drive to Survive” has not managed to capture yet and communicate to its audience?
[15:32] Christian Horner: If you were to go a step further to really get into the workings of the sport, the meetings that we attend — there are very small glimpses, here and there, about the future of the sport, the regulations, how they’re achieved. I think all of that…
[15:49] Ed Bernardon: How do you make that exciting?
[15:51] Christian Horner: I mean, believe me, the meetings are exciting enough. Sometimes, the meetings are more exciting than racing.
[15:58] Ed Bernardon: I’m sure that there’s so much video footage of everything that you’ve done, and they cut and splice and make the final episode. Can you share maybe a memorable or a funny moment behind the camera that got cut?
[16:12] Christian Horner: They start to come through this time of year where you see the cuttings, but just of your parts before they are edited into an overall program. And on many occasions, I think, “Really, did I say that?” Or, “Did that really happen?”
[16:27] Ed Bernardon: What was one of the things you said that you regret a little bit?
[16:30] Christian Horner: I don’t know, maybe it’s, “Do I really swear that much?”
[16:35] Ed Bernardon: Do you?
[16:35] Christian Horner: I didn’t think I did.
[16:36] Ed Bernardon: I would imagine when you’re in a series like this, you learn a little bit about yourself, like you just said. So, what’s the greatest insight about, maybe yourself, about the team, or even about maybe some of the other principals?
[16:51] Christian Horner: I think just be true to who you are. Be the best version of yourself that you can be. Don’t try to be something that you’re not. Because I think people see through it. I think people will always see through if somebody’s trying to portray something that they really aren’t.
[17:12] Ed Bernardon: So, you and Toto have had your words over the years. Rivalry aside, how would you say the biggest difference is between the way you are as a team principal versus Toto?What’s your biggest style difference, would you say?
[17:27] Christian Horner: Probably a bit more British-centric, that I don’t show as much emotion, I don’t get perhaps as riled. People are just different, different styles. It’s not saying that one is right or one is wrong. I love the racing element, that’s a key element for me. I enjoy the commercial side of the business, working with partners, sponsors, and technical partners. And yeah, you’re judged ultimately on what you do on track at those 23 or 24 races a year.
[17:57] Ed Bernardon: This is my last question till we get into the fun questions at the end. What do you think racing will be like in the year 2100?
[18:05] Christian Horner: We won’t be there to see it. Will they have wheels? It’s always interesting if you look at a film like “Back to the Future,” what their vision of the year 2000 was. Some things they were not far off from 1985 to the year 2000. Some things they were miles away on. So yeah, it’ll be interesting to see.
[18:25] Ed Bernardon: All right, Christian, thank you so much.
[18:26] Christian Horner: Thank you very much indeed.
[18:27] Ed Bernardon: I want to wrap things up with our rapid-fire section — quick questions and quick answers. Ready to go?
[18:32] Christian Horner: Yeah.
[18:32] Ed Bernardon: All right, let’s do it. First car you ever bought or owned?
[18:36] Christian Horner: Volkswagen Beetle.
[18:37] Ed Bernardon: Oh, Volkswagen. What color?
[18:39] Christian Horner: White, like Herbie.
[18:40] Ed Bernardon: Did you pass your driver’s test on the first try?
[18:43] Christian Horner: Yes, within a couple of weeks of my birthday.
[18:46] Ed Bernardon: Oh, really. [45:59 inaudible] right out there. You don’t need a license to have a go-kart.
[18:50] Christian Horner: I’d applied for my test way before my birthday.
[18:54] Ed Bernardon: What’s the fastest you’ve ever driven a regular car on the highway?
[18:58] Christian Horner: Always within the speed limit.
[19:01] Ed Bernardon: So, you’ve never had a speeding ticket?
[19:03] Christian Horner: Oh, yes. I’ve had several speeding tickets.
[19:06] Ed Bernardon: Just real quick, your best speeding ticket story.
[19:09] Christian Horner: Unfortunately, I live all on camera so they’re not ever that exciting. It’s nothing…
[19:14] Ed Bernardon: Oh, you just got caught by that, no interaction with the police.
[19:16] Christian Horner: No, there’s not been a high-speed pursuit or anything like that.
[19:20] Ed Bernardon: So, the world of autonomous cars is coming someday. So, you’re going to have what’s called a “Living Room on Wheels.” You’ve got a five-hour car trip, you don’t have to drive, you can do anything you want. What’s inside your Living Room on Wheels? What do you want inside that car? It’s autonomous, you can have anything you want.
[19:42] Christian Horner: Well, first of all, I’m not sure I’ll be that happy sitting in a Living Room on Wheels. You want to be able to engage with the outside world. You want to be able to interact, you want to be able to watch racing of real cars while sitting in your moving sitting room.
[20:00] Ed Bernardon: What person, living or not, would you like to have with you on that five-hour trip?
[20:06] Christian Horner: There are so many people that would have been interesting. Just from my world of racing, whether it was a Fangio or a Colin Chapman or some of the icons of the history of the sport.
[20:17] Ed Bernardon: If you had to pick one of the current team principals for that ride, who would you pick?
[20:21] Christian Horner: One of the current team principals…
[20:25] Ed Bernardon: You can leave Guenther Steiner if you want.
[20:27] Christian Horner: I would pick Peter Bayer or Laurent Mekies; they both seem like nice guys at the AlphaTauri team.
[20:33] Ed Bernardon: What’s your favorite Spice Girls song?
[20:35] Christian Horner: Favorite Spice Girls song? Now you’re testing me. “Wannabe,” there you go. That’s a big one.
[20:44] Ed Bernardon: Who’s your second favorite Spice Girl?
[20:46] Christian Horner: They are all joint second.
[20:49] Ed Bernardon: That’s a good answer. That’s why you’re in charge. Just to finish things, the last three questions, really quick. If you could magically invent one thing, what would it be?
[20:59] Christian Horner: If I could magically invent one thing, it would be a time machine.
[21:05] Ed Bernardon: Tell us something about yourself that your family and friends don’t know.
[21:08] Christian Horner: I scratched my brother’s car when I was 18 and made him think that he’d done it.
[21:15] Ed Bernardon: Did you really do that?
[21:17] Christian Horner: He was away at university. I borrowed his car. Yeah.
[21:20] Ed Bernardon: And he doesn’t know this?
[21:21] Christian Horner: He probably does now.
21:23] Ed Bernardon: All right. And the last question, I know who you think is going to come in first this year. What team is going to come in second in the constructors?
[21:32] Christian Horner: I don’t care.
[21:34 Ed Bernardon: Oh, excellent answer. Thank you so much, Christian. Thank you for joining us.
[21:38] Christian Horner: Cheers! Thank you.
